MarTech 2025

Rohaan Kaul (00:01.787)
Hello everyone, this is Rohan here, founder of ZivOps and I am here once again with the third installment of our video series called Martech 2025 where we are talking to experts all across the globe on what should be the ideal martech stack in 2025 with the advent of technology and AI and gen.ai. So today on the panel we have Katie Evans who's the owner of Saguaro and Bloom.

Katie is someone with immense amount of experience in marketing and very diverse experience. She's been in marketing for 14 years, doing marketing in tons of different industry domains like EdTech, real estate, fintech, B2B and SaaS. I liked one part about Katie's resume that know she's written that her focus on the customer acquisition part is a lot to do with

focusing on the human connection rather than the technology element of it. And I think so that is one part that we are missing in today's world a lot. Like there's so much focus on technology, data and all of it, that ultimately we are forgetting about the part that ultimately we are selling to humans. So Katie, welcome, how are you?

Katie Evans (01:16.0)
I'm good. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Rohaan Kaul (01:19.688)
Welcome aboard. So, so Katie, tell me

What

Katie Evans (01:47.405)
Yes?

Rohaan Kaul (01:53.403)
you've got you've done a master's degree in marketing right so tell us like what was the reason is it something that you was something that you had planned already that you're going to do something in marketing or what was it

Katie Evans (02:08.182)
Yeah, in a roundabout way, really no, actually. So I grew up in a small town in Colorado, it's called Durango, and I was going to go into nutrition, actually. So I wanted to be a nutritional coach. I was the ripe age of 18, and my mom was like, you need a job, you need to move out. So I was like, okay, great. So I got a job actually as this community outreach specialist. And at the time I had no idea that that meant marketing.

Rohaan Kaul (02:27.822)
Haha

Katie Evans (02:35.276)
had no idea at the time that I was going to be required to hit these very specific sales goals. And so I sort of acted in both spaces, but I ended up working for this chiropractor in my hometown and I was literally walking up and down the streets of my hometown selling chiropractic care. It was a lot of outreach and it was a lot of community aspects, but I was ultimately...

required to hit these goals of how many new patients came in the door. Cut to now it's been like 15 years since I met that chiropractor and he is still one of my very best friends. We just visited him a couple weeks ago. So I really did I fell into it but what I learned was that I was very good at telling stories.

I was very good at connecting with people. It was very easy for me to instantly see or understand something that maybe you and I would have in common. I made people feel comfortable and so it was really easy for me to talk to people about whatever it was, being chiropractic care or, know, then I started freelancing and...

working for a bunch of different clients. And then I learned how to connect with realtors and therapists and, you know, ed tech companies and talk to superintendents. So it was always just learning how to tell the story to the right people. And I think, like you said, it's the human aspect of it. So I did fall into marketing, but like you said, I've been in it for a very long time. Got my master's in marketing a few years ago, went back later in life, actually, while I was pregnant with my daughter. And so it was a wild ride.

Rohaan Kaul (04:07.982)
Yeah

Katie Evans (04:08.459)
But we're out of it now, so...

Rohaan Kaul (04:11.501)
Interesting, interesting. The other interesting part I noticed in your resume was you dabbled in photography in between, like you had your own photography business. Tell us, I mean, this is really interesting. I mean, is it again the human connection part that you picked up from there? What was it about photography and that whole career line?

Katie Evans (04:23.874)
to

Katie Evans (04:37.226)
Yeah, that was, you know, my undergrad was in photography and I minored in business, but at the time that didn't seem super important. I wanted to be able to again tell a story. And so I think coming out of the start of my career, because I went back to my undergraduate degree a little bit later in life, I graduated when I was 25, right? And that's kind of an anomaly. Most people go straight in after college or after high school.

But I wanted to be able to tell a story and I knew that I could monetize it. So I had always had an eye for something creative. I love to paint and sculpt and draw and do all of these things. But I'm like, yeah, if I do photography, I can tell these really beautiful stories in a way that, you know, also brings in some cash. And so it was an idea of how to actually bring in an income. But then I loved it. I loved the documentary aspect of it.

I learned from a very quick age that I had an eye for composition and for lighting. And so I kind of fell in love with the craft. And at the same time, then it was able to be this offering that I gave to my marketing clients, right? So I was able to do brand photography and I did a lot of event space photography and featured in a few magazines here in Tucson. They're not notable.

but featured in a few and at the time I felt like that was super cool and it translated super well into marketing. So I loved the idea of being able to be both behind and in front of the camera and show people something that they, it's so hard to conceptualize when you're standing behind the camera and I say, smile, Chan, do this, that and the other, that it becomes this really beautiful moment. And I fell in love with it.

I still dabble in it actually. I just took some photographs the other day. it's definitely something I think I'll probably do for the rest of my life. I'm just not sure how to compete with all the amazing photographers in Tucson. So I'm just gonna stay in the marketing realm.

Rohaan Kaul (06:41.967)
I know, I mean, I find that, you know, people who are able to connect, like, you know, when you talk about candid photography, like people who are basically able to connect with the subject and get the emotions out there, you know, when you do that, that's when you get the best photography out. And that's why I was like, you know, trying to say the human connection part with the photography is really, really, I think so it's come out over there. Now that you talk about storytelling time and again, who's your favorite storyteller?

Katie Evans (07:12.942)
I'm gonna butcher his name, so you have to forgive me, but Paulo Coelho, the one that wrote The Alchemist. it is the most beautiful story ever, and I loved The Pilgrimage, but actually when my husband and I got married, we eloped and our entire, what do they call it? Like not scripture, but the person that married us actually referenced him, and I was like, this is meant to be, and we're still married, so it must have worked.

Rohaan Kaul (07:17.645)
yes.

Rohaan Kaul (07:28.73)
Yeah.

Rohaan Kaul (07:40.923)
True, true, true. I think so. It did manifest. what he says, know, there's the power of fascination. Interesting. I mean, I actually love a fictional storyteller as compared to, you know, my, I tell on this podcast time and again that one of my favorite storytellers is Don Draper from Mad Men, like fell in love.

Katie Evans (07:42.769)
Exactly.

Katie Evans (07:46.99)
Yes, exactly.

Katie Evans (07:57.656)
Just.

Katie Evans (08:05.525)
yes.

Rohaan Kaul (08:06.595)
Like that is what now I am trying to do in my sales pitches like you know go all out like that.

Katie Evans (08:11.916)
Yeah, absolutely. I love it.

Rohaan Kaul (08:15.897)
Yeah, it's probably that or Steve Jobs, either of those.

Katie Evans (08:20.632)
Totally. That's a perfect person to look up to. If I could just have a fraction of the money that he has, I'd be pretty thrilled.

Rohaan Kaul (08:24.228)
No.

Rohaan Kaul (08:30.413)
Everyone would want that fraction of money. Definitely. All right.

Katie Evans (08:33.184)
We can share it. You get some, I'll get some, and then we can share it.

Rohaan Kaul (08:38.649)
So now let's come to the tech part of it. I know, I mean, there's been a lot of talk about, you know, AI, Gen. AI. I know a lot of people are trying to dabble with it. Like, you know, there's been experimentation. I mean, most of the people I've been talking to, there's a lot of experimentation around it. No concrete results as of now, but keeping all that in mind, what do you think is broadly going to happen in terms of, you know, building Martex in 2025?

somebody looking to build a new stack altogether or they are looking at revising their stacks in 2025, what do you think is going to happen or what would be the approach in 2025?

Katie Evans (09:24.77)
Yeah, I think and I've maybe seen this when I was working on the back end of Marketo. I was working on a major retailer recently when my contract ended in October and I kind of started to see the shift. But I think we're going to move away from sort of like just predictive analytics or you know some really awesome data points that AI can give us and I think it's going to become hyper personalized. I would imagine that

you know, every platform out there, you name it, especially, you know, the big players in the game are going to move into more of those like hyper relevant targeting. I think if anything, it's just going to make what we do a lot easier. It's going to make, you know, it's going to be a game changer for people like you and I or anyone working in this sort of, you know, marketing ops world.

I think it's going to take over a lot of those like low value tasks. I think it's going to take over a lot of the data analyze or the analyzation. You're going to have to cut that.

Rohaan Kaul (10:30.245)
Alright, I'll do that.

Katie Evans (10:30.974)
And why is that such a hard word?

Katie Evans (10:36.906)
Analyzation? Got it. Actually, you can keep it. That's funny. That's real. I can't even pronounce the damn word and I'm talking about it.

Rohaan Kaul (10:46.585)
Alright, cool, no worries. Yeah, we nearly added that part out, no worries. Yeah, let's continue.

Katie Evans (10:49.292)
Wow. But you can, yeah, cut it up, jizz it up, do whatever you need to do. But I think that that is the key, is just the, will become hyper relevant. So, you I was working with, it wasn't huge, but it was like 8 million people. That's a pretty decent, you know, stack of data and being able to filter through. And even though I was using,

Rohaan Kaul (11:09.595)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Evans (11:12.69)
know, chat GPT to help and say, here's what I have, like help me kind of find these trends. I think that that is going to be so built in. And I think on the other side, and you know, you and I kind of briefly touched about this beforehand, I think that there's going to be a awkward shift in like the trust that is a human really doing it or should we be relying on this, you know, AI more so than our own brains and

I mean, there is often every single day, I can't tell you, I use AI for every single thing I do and not saying that that produces my content or makes me a good marketer, but I use it as this like this best buddy of mine that just like gut checks. Like, am I right? Am I targeting these people the right way? Do you think that they're going to interact or Hey, give me an idea or this is where I'm at and I only get maybe 50%. Like I have dialed in so well.

my relationship with Chad GPT, I probably should name him, that it just allows me to be bigger and better. And I would imagine the same thing is going to happen for, you know, for any platform. Honestly, I think it doesn't matter what it's going to be either. It's probably going to be seamlessly integrated. So I would imagine we'll see those updates starting to happen fairly soon here.

Rohaan Kaul (12:28.163)
Alright, so what would be you name your chat GPD if you wanted to name him?

Katie Evans (12:33.034)
Hmm, probably Harrison.

Rohaan Kaul (12:35.521)
why would that be, Harrison?

Katie Evans (12:38.03)
I know, it just seems like a good AI name, don't you think? Harrison the chatbot?

Rohaan Kaul (12:43.043)
Right, good. mean, if given an option, I would actually name Javis. I'm a huge Iron Man fan. I literally want, I want to buy that Iron Man helmet actually, you know, just to do that. And I was telling somebody that I was kind of a nerd when it came to, you know, during my younger days and I was trying to build a home automation system using Raspberry Pi, which

Katie Evans (12:57.008)
Yes.

Katie Evans (13:03.372)
Mm-hmm.

Rohaan Kaul (13:08.897)
with the name javis that you know that could execute the voice commands but

Katie Evans (13:12.362)
Yes, I love Robert Downey Jr. Side note, he's fabulous. So little cutie patootie. Maybe he'll watch this and hear me.

Rohaan Kaul (13:16.939)
huh. Cool.

Sure, we will try our best that he watches it. Definitely, alright.

Katie Evans (13:24.748)
Totally tag Robert Downey Jr. like, hey, Katie's got a crush on you.

Rohaan Kaul (13:31.515)
Cool. let's say if somebody in B2B marketing space, I'm taking a reference of B2B marketing more because I've seen that predominantly a lot of work has been in B2B marketing and SaaS space. So let's say if somebody's planning to build a stack in 2025, what would be your top recommendations in terms of things that they actually require in a stack from a marketing point of view?

Of course, B2B, of the major things with marketing is the charter is always aligning with the sales. That's one of the most important things, the marketing and sales alignment that we talk about time and again. But we falter every time. That's a different thing. What would be your recommendation in terms of building a stack? Tools, components that you would recommend that this is a must have, this is something that is nice to have, or at what stage would those tools come into play?

Katie Evans (14:04.589)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Evans (14:12.066)
Totally.

Katie Evans (14:26.328)
I think that, and I actually was consulting with a client yesterday on what they should do. They don't have a CRM. They don't have any sort of a tech stack. I'm like, you know, if you're going to scale that ultimately you're going to have to get to that point because there's a pretty huge team behind this particular person I was talking about. And like at some point you are going to have to be able to show and like align these two teams exactly what you're talking about. in a previous life, one of the people that I worked for, I'm like,

How on earth am I sitting here as your director of marketing and we have a director of sales and neither of us have a clue what is going on. There's absolutely no integration between our two teams. And so I have found this challenge time and time again. So that'd be the first thing I would tell anybody is you can start small. And, you know, I mentioned to you like crawl, walk, run.

You can start small and you can even play, you know, with some of those platforms, like a MailChimp or like a HubSpot or a pipe drive, something that is scalable enough that you can even start to understand maybe how the stack would work, how you would implement some sort of journey or nurture program or how you're even just tracking and managing leads.

Maybe you're not getting into lead scoring, but you can at least understand that you know the difference between cold and a hot lead maybe. So without maybe diving too far into the data, I would say like start small enough. There's so many free programs out there and this is exactly what I told my client. There's so much available to us that is free.

that you can start to learn and then you can dive into sort of like the analytics portion and then maybe you add in like Google Analytics on top and maybe, you know, you're four years down the road, you can start thinking about what a Tableau dashboard looks like or maybe you implement platforms on the back end of your website that would help draw in some of that data like Hopjar. So I think you just have to start.

Katie Evans (16:21.71)
That would be my, know, to get your stack, get, just start with something. Maybe you start with HubSpot and then you sort of start adding on some of these analytics programs. I think ultimately these B2B companies, even if it's small, right? Like there's a lot of smaller size B2B companies, like automation is going to be key in 2025. I think often.

Rohaan Kaul (16:26.587)
Great.

Katie Evans (16:47.242)
We don't put as much value on these sort of like everyday, maybe menial or maybe like lower value tasks. And ultimately that's what's going to drive a sale. I don't know about you, but my Instagram is like full of like, here's how to make a sales funnel. And it's all these like sell a course in 24 hours, become a millionaire. And of course I click on it because I'm like, I'll do that. And it's just this, this lead page, right? It's the sales funnel. And I'm like, you got it.

Right. I'm, I know this and I tell people not to do it and it gets me every time. So there's going to have to be some sort of automation on that sales part. I'm not saying don't do a sales page. Don't do a lead funnel. I mean, you can, but some of them are annoying. but some of that stack is going to have to integrate some of those, platforms are,

I would say ultimately you get to the point where you are incorporating then some of your campaign management, maybe you're using Meta itself. I think you can start to work in your content system. So if you already have like maybe your website built on the back end of WordPress, maybe you're incorporating that in. Or you transfer over because I think some of it.

Maybe with these template websites, know, you can only get so far with analytics. can only get so far with content syndication. so I think it's a lot of trial and error, but you just have to start somewhere. That's exactly what I told them. am like, you just start somewhere, just get the free version of HubSpot and then we can always add it. can be the beautiful stack of pancakes with a little whipped cream on top. for now, just make the first pancake. So that's would tell somebody.

Rohaan Kaul (18:30.501)
All right. I mean, yes, I think so when we had a discussion, you mentioned about the crawl, walk, run model. I mean, digging deeper into that, you know, I think so one of the things that especially with the startups and the mid-size companies is always about the fact that, you know, we're talking about

Katie Evans (18:38.39)
Mm-hmm.

Rohaan Kaul (18:56.879)
budget issues, there's a question of scalability and flexibility, right? And especially the scaling part of it, hiring the right skills and that part of it.

So how do you solve all of those? I've particularly come across this thing time and again where because of these constraints, what we are trying to do is doubling up on people, trying to do multiple things. I think so as a marketer, are well aware of that. You always come across that, especially.

Katie Evans (19:28.864)
always.

Rohaan Kaul (19:29.243)
you are an SEO, are a social media marketer, you are everything, right? Which is ideally not a right scenario or a thing to do. So especially in scenarios like this, how do you solve this problem? Which is scaling, expert scaling for specific functions and at the same time working in those budgetary constraints and at the same time scaling fast with the flexibility that is required.

Katie Evans (19:34.594)
Yeah.

Katie Evans (19:57.906)
Yeah, I will the most success I found anyway working in this space and this might not be the right answer but the thing that I tell my clients is get an outside perspective and like just just take an audit of what are you doing on

how much money are you spending, where are you spending it? That's a really simple exercise, right? Like if you know you're paying for this platform, you're using two of them, have four people using those two, then like there's some ways to look now. But I think that that's why I have had so much success in, know, somewhere on a boom and I am so beyond grateful for the people that I get to work with is,

Sometimes you know, just hiring that outside perspective and outside consultant, even if it's for that one hour or about like, know, 90 minutes, like down and dirty intensive. It's like, have someone come in and identify really what needs to be done. Cause if you're hiring for generalists, no one is specialized enough to do the job to the best of their ability. Right? So that's why when you get to an agency, there's a content creator for a reason. There is a.

you know, automation specialist for a reason. And there is, you know, a project manager for a reason. If the project manager is working on content and creating the campaigns on Marketo, none of it is really getting touched in the way it needs to. So that's always what I tell people that might not be the answer that they want is to hire a consultant. But sometimes you can't see what you can't see and you don't know what you don't know. So if you can just, you know, take an audit and have someone help you figure out.

You know, if you leaned into maybe one of these two channels or these methods or tactics and really bulked up the skill set, that doesn't mean you have to fire who you have or lean in elsewhere. A lot of the times you just really need to narrow down. And I think that so many people, so many business coaches, I'm sure would say the same thing. And I do not claim to be a business coach in any way, or form. But if you are a specialist in your field, you know, you can charge a lot more money and you can be.

Katie Evans (22:04.536)
you know, a lot more valuable than sort of being a generalist. And I will say that coming from, I have been a generalist for well over 14 years now. So I'm not saying don't hire me because I'm very good at what I do. But I think a lot of the time there's underutilized tools, there's overlapping happening. And so that would be my first step is take an audit and just see, you know, where are you using your resources? What are you doing? And then see if anybody on your team can really specialize or.

get a contractor, right? Some of them, you know, $29 an hour, 50 bucks an hour, $100 an hour, just to come in and say, hey, two hours a week, help me streamline some of these processes or implement one of these platforms. Or maybe you are migrating your stack over, you know, your, your automation platform over to something that you're not sure of. There are so many consultants out there that are hungry to make things better. I would always say just lean on the consultants.

me being one of them, maybe this is a shameless plug, but lean on the consultants to kind of help you lean out and figure out what you really need in your team. That's what I would say.

Rohaan Kaul (23:10.747)
ultimately that's marketing so that's what you want to do for marketing. We will tell everyone like if anybody is looking for a specialist in B2B marketing we'll have Katie's LinkedIn profile on our section on our description section please go ahead and hire her right or we could

Katie Evans (23:14.87)
No? Hire me! No, I'm kidding.

Katie Evans (23:27.991)
Fabulous.

Katie Evans (23:33.23)
Love it. Cool.

Rohaan Kaul (23:36.603)
actually onboard you on our platform, which was basically built for this purpose for people to hire fractional talent exactly like what you were saying. I mean, we'll do that. We'll definitely do that.

Katie Evans (23:47.082)
Okay, so you and I are gonna set up a call after this podcast is what you're saying Okay, you don't think I'm gonna email you today you're wrong. So you better get ready After you nap, I know that you just traveled so I'll give you like an hour and then I'll then I'll have you know

Rohaan Kaul (23:55.707)
Definitely.

Rohaan Kaul (24:03.083)
Alright, cool. So, alright, so that basically covers a lot of things that we wanted to talk about. So, what would be your message to marketers for 2025? Like, you know, what is it that you want, any special message that you want to give out to marketing community in general for the new year that's coming up?

Katie Evans (24:24.246)
Yeah, two things. think have a plan. And so if you don't already have the plan going into January 1st or like by the 15th, get with someone, me fine. Get with someone that can at least give you that tentative roadmap. It doesn't have to be perfectly planned out. You don't know how, you don't have to know exactly how much money you're going to spend, what you're going to do where, but have an idea because a lot of the time that that Q1 is just going to be floundering. You're like,

Rohaan Kaul (24:27.387)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Evans (24:51.486)
my God, have suddenly I have all these new goals and I need to make all these new sales or I need to get all of these new leads. But what do I do? So like take the next week because I know we're all going to be off for Christmas and enjoying ourselves. Take the next week to just kind of plan and figure out like tentatively. Here's what I know. I'm going to do January, February, March. I think the other thing is don't be afraid of AI because there's so much that we can learn from the entire internet. I have learned so much in the last year.

compared to 14 years of my life. And I went through a master's program without AI. I didn't even know Chad GPT existed. Maybe it didn't actually a few years ago. And that was a challenge, right? So there's still people out there that actually got this information in a different way. So like lean on those specialists. And then I would say that ultimately, if you were trying to figure out what...

what MarTech stack you're trying to come up with or what team you're trying to make. This is what I told you, I know in answering these questions, but the goal should not just be automation. You still have to have that human aspect. So learn how to tell the story, learn how to connect with people, create a system that really amplifies the technology and the human aspect. If you can somehow kind of meld those two things together or get someone to help you meld those things.

Two things together, think you're gonna see some wild success.

Rohaan Kaul (26:16.763)
Alright, cool. That is the most authentic and best advice I have heard till now from all the people that I have interviewed.

Katie Evans (26:27.711)
my god, thank you!

Rohaan Kaul (26:30.607)
I mean the human connection part, am like, you know, I'm a technologist, but I'm a huge, huge fan of that, you know, that is ultimately you have to understand, like I said, tell everyone time and again, you are selling to humans. You might want to believe that we take rational decisions, but 95 of our decisions when it comes to purchase are driven by certain varying level of emotions, you know.

Katie Evans (26:41.432)
Yes.

Katie Evans (26:46.467)
Yes.

Katie Evans (26:58.092)
Yes.

Rohaan Kaul (26:59.087)
That is what it is. It's always about like,

Katie Evans (27:00.81)
I just read this fabulous article from, Mark, what is his last name? I'll have to send it to you. and it was like, doesn't matter what the facts are. I'm going to make a decision anyway. And I was like, you're absolutely right. Like someone can give me all the reviews in the world and all the facts in the world. I've already made up my mind going into it. Why do you think Instagram is still targeting me on how to become a millionaire overnight with courses? like, stop showing me because I'm like in the back of my head. like, can I do that?

Rohaan Kaul (27:13.307)
Shoot.

Katie Evans (27:30.178)
You know, like it's already the emotional investment. So I think we cannot forget that we are humans and humans are on the other side of the screen and humans made the chat GPT and all the other AI. And we're going to have to figure out how to communicate with each other in this, in this techie world. And that's why there's both you and I, here we are, fatten about it.

Rohaan Kaul (27:41.849)
That's right.

Rohaan Kaul (27:51.075)
Right? That's Yeah, that's true. All right. All right, Katie, it was delightful talking to you. I really enjoyed it today. I wish I mean, since we are coming to the end of the year, and you know, about a week or so. So I wish you and your entire family a very happy New Year. I wish you personally a very successful New Year going ahead. And maybe sometime again, we might do another series with you. So we'll be in touch. All right. Thank you once again.

Katie Evans (28:17.998)
Yes, happy holidays. Yeah, happy new year. So nice to meet and chat with you and I can't wait to see where this whole thing goes. So please be safe over the holidays and I'm sure we'll chat soon.

Rohaan Kaul (28:21.477)
Thank you.

Rohaan Kaul (28:31.021)
All right, all right. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Katie Evans (28:33.452)
Thank you so much.